DUST Search - Starbucks, Hilmar and coffee/gunplay.

Vrain Matari wrote:

Baal Roo wrote:

Vrain Matari wrote:

Baal Roo wrote:

I think a more apt analogy for your argument would be the exact opposite. FPS is not what CCP is good at. CCP is good at making deep player driven sandbox experiences full of politics and economics.

Expecting CCP to sell coffee when they aren't a company known for having great coffee, right next door to a bunch of popular coffeehouses is ridiculous. They're never going to have good coffee. You're completely misunderstanding the whole point of the Starbucks thing. Starbucks focused on what they were good at. At it's heart, Starbucks is just a fast food place without any fast food... instead they act like a fast food joint but actually just sell you coffee. Dust 514 needs to act like an FPS to get the FPS people through the door, but then sell you a deep player driven sandbox experience full of politics and economics.

All i can say to that is they picked the fight, it doesn't really matter whether it was a wise decision or not, there's not any backing down now. That will finish them as far as DUST is concerned. Your can't bullshit the FPSers.

It's not "bullshitting" to make the best game you can make. Just look at Eve: Online, It's not an amazing space flight sim... and space flight sim players are probably the one single demographic of gamers that are even more picky than FPS players.

The flying a spaceship and shooting things is simply the vehicle in which they package the actual meat of the game, it's not "the core" of the game. The same could be done with Dust 514, and I would argue that it's what the majority of the fans of the idea of Dust 514 really want. As long as the FPS stuff is servicable then we're good to go for diving into the actual game of a deep sandbox of politics, economics, etc.

I think you're dead wrong. I think the bulk of the peeps who drop this game after only a few hours drop it on the basis of the core mechanics. Adding all the cool higher level content that is New Eden will have very little effect on that retention rate. Players only hours or days old who are dropping the game are not dropping it on the basis of sov mechanics of player market.

Imo, they're dropping DUST based on the controls and feel of the game.


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Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2968	Posted - 2014.02.14 01:14:00 - [1] - Quote I think a more apt analogy for your argument would be the exact opposite. FPS is not what CCP is good at. CCP is good at making deep player driven sandbox experiences full of politics and economics. Expecting CCP to sell coffee when they aren't a company known for having great coffee, right next door to a bunch of popular coffeehouses is ridiculous. They're never going to have good coffee.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2971	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:25:00 - [2] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Baal Roo wrote: I think a more apt analogy for your argument would be the exact opposite. FPS is not what CCP is good at. CCP is good at making deep player driven sandbox experiences full of politics and economics. Expecting CCP to sell coffee when they aren't a company known for having great coffee, right next door to a bunch of popular coffeehouses is ridiculous. They're never going to have good coffee. You're completely misunderstanding the whole point of the Starbucks thing. Starbucks focused on what they were good at. At it's heart, Starbucks is just a fast food place without any fast food... instead they act like a fast food joint but actually just sell you coffee. Dust 514 needs to act like an FPS to get the FPS people through the door, but then sell you a deep player driven sandbox experience full of politics and economics. All i can say to that is they picked the fight, it doesn't really matter whether it was a wise decision or not, there's not any backing down now. That will finish them as far as DUST is concerned. Your can't bullshit the FPSers. It's not "bullshitting" to make the best game you can make. Just look at Eve: Online, It's not an amazing space flight sim... and space flight sim players are probably the one single demographic of gamers that are even more picky than FPS players. The flying a spaceship and shooting things is simply the vehicle in which they package the actual meat of the game, it's not "the core" of the game. The same could be done with Dust 514, and I would argue that it's what the majority of the fans of the idea of Dust 514 really want. As long as the FPS stuff is servicable then we're good to go for diving into the actual game of a deep sandbox of politics, economics, etc.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2971	Posted - 2014.02.14 05:58:00 - [3] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Baal Roo wrote: I think a more apt analogy for your argument would be the exact opposite. FPS is not what CCP is good at. CCP is good at making deep player driven sandbox experiences full of politics and economics. Expecting CCP to sell coffee when they aren't a company known for having great coffee, right next door to a bunch of popular coffeehouses is ridiculous. They're never going to have good coffee. You're completely misunderstanding the whole point of the Starbucks thing. Starbucks focused on what they were good at. At it's heart, Starbucks is just a fast food place without any fast food... instead they act like a fast food joint but actually just sell you coffee. Dust 514 needs to act like an FPS to get the FPS people through the door, but then sell you a deep player driven sandbox experience full of politics and economics. All i can say to that is they picked the fight, it doesn't really matter whether it was a wise decision or not, there's not any backing down now. That will finish them as far as DUST is concerned. Your can't bullshit the FPSers. It's not "bullshitting" to make the best game you can make. Just look at Eve: Online, It's not an amazing space flight sim... and space flight sim players are probably the one single demographic of gamers that are even more picky than FPS players. The flying a spaceship and shooting things is simply the vehicle in which they package the actual meat of the game, it's not "the core" of the game. The same could be done with Dust 514, and I would argue that it's what the majority of the fans of the idea of Dust 514 really want. As long as the FPS stuff is servicable then we're good to go for diving into the actual game of a deep sandbox of politics, economics, etc. I think you're dead wrong. I think the bulk of the peeps who drop this game after only a few hours drop it on the basis of the core mechanics. Adding all the cool higher level content that is New Eden will have very little effect on that retention rate. Players only hours or days old who are dropping the game are not dropping it on the basis of sov mechanics of player market. Imo, they're dropping DUST based on the controls and feel of the game. Well yeah, they're dropping Dust based on the controls and feel of the game because that's all there is. If there was all sorts of awesome stuff to do in the world of Dust 514, and it wasn't just a shallow lobby shooter those people might stick around. So, what do you think is the more likely scenario: 1. CCP turns and does a full 180 and in the next year they all of a sudden become an FPS developing phenomenon. or 2. CCP stops pretending like they know how to make a finely-tuned, edge-of-your-seat FPS game, and focus on doing all of the things that have made their other game a huge success Frankly, I find the possibility of 1 happening to be extremely remote. they are never going to make Dust 514 into something that is even competitive in the pure FPS gameplay market. it's just not going to happen. No matter how much they improve, anyone looking for a "AAA" FPS experience is going to be disappointed. However, right now (and if they shoot for #1) even though CCP is one of the best companies in all of gaming at deliving a deep and rich player driven sandbox MMO, anyone looking for that in Dust 514 is also going to be disappointed. On the other hand, if they go for #2, they will likely meet and maybe even surpass the expectations of all of the people who want an awesome and deep sandbox MMO experience, wrapped up in an FPS package. Those potential customers who are looking for that experience are the ones who are most likely interested in a game made by CCP in the first place. Furthermore, FPS players might try it out and think "well, this isn't a great FPS.... but all of this other stuff is really interesting." With option 1, there's is no upside. With option 2 there is.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2986	Posted - 2014.02.16 00:23:00 - [4] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: I think that when most experienced FPSers give the game a shot they end up rejecting it based on the controls. You think different? I definitely think different. Since there's nothing else to do in the game then in a way you're correct, but by that estimation you're assuming that "experienced FPSers" only want to play "pure" FPS titles and have no interest in anything else. I just don't believe that's true. If when a new player started this game up, there was an awesome new player experience that told them all about corporations and PC and Faction Warfare, and clearly showed them an awesome interactive map of who owned what and who was fighting where. If it then showed them the player market and how winning battles earned you money and equipment that you could then leverage and sell to other players for a profit. If it showed how corporations could leverage there power and strength and corner markets, make backroom deals, sabotage partners, etc. If it showed how you need a balanced group of different roles in your squad, with a logi to drop hives and ammo, a heavy to create a moving frontline, assault guys to watch the flanks, scouts to report enemy movements and snipe, dropship pilots to move squads around, tanks to provide area denial, etc etc. If it was then shown to the player that they had to CHOOSE which path to go down, and that they had to think through those choices because skillpoints were non-refundable. If they were shown how PVE content existed to create more depth and to serve purpose in the larger geopolitical environment. If all of these dynamic elements EXISTED, and then were made evident to a new player starting out, then I think new players would understand that the game is meant to be about much more than just the moment to moment FPS mechanics. Look, people who like FPS games play GTA, and that has terrible shooting mechanics. They play Gran Turismo, and that doesn't even have guns at all. They play Madden. Etc, etc. This game doesn't have to be the greatest FPS of all time to be a good game, it just need more gameplay than just the shallow FPS lobby shooter that it is now.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2989	Posted - 2014.02.16 03:13:00 - [5] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: @ Baal Roo. I definitely hear what you're saying. But you're also making assumptions about what i believe, and it's definitely not " that 'experienced FPSers" only want to play "pure" FPS titles and have no interest in anything else'. Either you misunderstand me or it's a straw man argument. Of course there are FPSers out there who are crying out for a deep, engaging, persistent, living universe to FPS in. But i also believe that the first credibility test that those potential New Eden citizens will subject CCP to is the FPS mechanics, the controls, the feel of the game. Because it's what those new players know best and a AAA FPS experience is what DUST promises. CCP is asking these new players for a lot: they're changing a lot of the FPS conventions, they're putting these new players on an uneven playing field, they're introducing complex systems that are alien to many console FPS players. CCP is effectively saying to players 'Forget what you know, this is New Eden. You have to step up your game, you have to learn all these new systems and mechanics. You have to pay these penalties for failure, you have to invest in this game more than casually if you want to do well.' And that's fine, and that's the way i want it. But there a deal implicit in asking for all those things from new players: the deal is that if the player makes that dedicated effort CCP will do their part to provide an experience that measures up to the effort invested. And so we come to the point where the new player says 'Ok, CCP, you're on, i'll give DUST a serious go.' And they play a few matches and come to the realization that CCP has executed poorly on basic mechanics and that the game plays exactly like you'd expect a free-to-play shooter to play. And now the player has to make an assessment: 'Do i accept all this romantic-sounding big talk CCP is sending my way about their mind-blowing virtual universe, or do i call bullshit because they can't even execute on basic FPS mechanics, and save myself the time?' We definitely disagree about how that question gets answered by new players. Tbh i hope you're right, but that's not the way i'd bet. I'm certainly not intending to create a straw man argument here. I think really we're just talking past each other. I agree with you that currently, your explanation of how things are is relatively accurate. Where we differ is that it seems to me like you believe CCP is capable of making a high quality AAA lobby FPS. I, on the other hand, do not believe that is the case. Furthermore, I don't think there's really anything currently in this game that is more than a very mild departure from the standard FPS. Most modern FPS games have unlocks that give vets better gear than new players. I just don't see anything particularly different about Dust 514, aside from it's poor FPS mechanics. My opinion is that CCP shouldn't be focusing on the thing that they are obviously bad at, when they could make the game excel if they would focus on the stuff they are good at. Sure, the game is an FPS, but it could be a sandbox MMO that also happens to use FPS mechanics to faciliate the actual meat of the game, just like Eve: Online is a sandbox MMO that also happens to have space combat.